Nnamdi Aduba is professor of Constitutional Law at the Faculty of Law, University of Jos. He has been teaching law for more than three decades and is also on the board of Yiaga Africa, providing oversight on electoral processes. In this interview with ISAAC SHOBAYO, Professor Aduba speaks on the controversial allowances of National Assembly members, seizure of Nigeria’s presidential jets, among others.
Sir, what is your assessment of the state of the nation?
It is terrible; things are no longer what they used to be. Our economy is at the lowest ebb. It is like we are hopeless. The situation in the South and here may be different, because here is gloomy—it is gloomy. Poverty, insecurity, that is what is plaguing us here. You look around, beggars are everywhere and the prices of things are going up. That is the situation here. It is bad. Very sad indeed.
In the face of all the economic shift and hardship in the country, National Assembly members are accused of collecting humongous amounts as allowances and other top government officials are living large. Do you think this is justified?
To start with, let me tell you, their salary is completely outrageous—completely outrageous. To put it into context, because I remember many years ago, I confronted [Ifeanyi] Okowa when he was a senator. I said, this extra, this type of salary you people are earning, how do you justify it? You know, he was a medical doctor, very exposed. So he said, listen—and I’m an academic, so you wouldn’t expect me to go along with whatever everybody is going about with. I should be a little bit more detailed. He told me there is a difference between a Nigerian legislator and a legislator in the United Kingdom or the United States. He said, listen, a legislator here in Nigeria is supposed to build hospitals and take care of people. When you look at the demands we make on them, it is enormous. So when you want to make a comparison, you should be a little bit circumspect. While you are shouting that the money is too much, you should also consider that what is expected of them is also sometimes too much. So, we have to be careful when we talk about their salaries.
Now, when you look at what they do—the legislation they pass—how often do they even sit? Compare their salaries with, say, a professor or a judge. Take a mean average of your top professionals and compare, you will find that, clearly, the amount of money they are taking is too much. But also, look at what they invest. When they go for elections, they spend so much money bribing people. I’m just coming from Edo State for this coming election. You needed to see the political parties’ offices. What are they doing? Wrappers, caps, gifts, they are literally buying the voters. So, it’s like an investment. Until the society itself gets to the stage where it puts service at the forefront, instead of looking for something else, we won’t change. They are not fools. If they’ve sold their houses to win an election, what do you expect them to do when they get there? They want to recover the money.
So, we must be circumspect in criticising them. We must recognise that our expectations are high, and what they are supposed to do is also high. Our elections are not elections; they are jamborees; you spend and spend. So, this is why I personally will say that we should be careful in accusing them of taking humongous amounts of money. We should also ask ourselves why we want our legislators to sponsor our weddings, pay our school fees, or cover our hospital bills. These are the ordinary demands we make on them. On the other hand, we should also appreciate that if we want good things, we should elect those who are going to serve, because, at the end of the day, we are the ones who put them there. But, generally, in view of the level of poverty that we have, their salaries are completely over the moon—completely over the moon, and they know it.
Another issue that has been generating discourse and controversy in the country is the matter of the presidential jets that were seized in France recently due to the legal dispute between a Chinese firm and the Ogun State government. This incident has caused a lot of embarrassment for Nigeria. What is your opinion on this, and how can this type of situation be avoided in the future?
You see, I have just finished reading a very informative article on it. What we should understand is that in international relations, you do not expect people to behave irresponsibly as we do. One of the greatest problems we have in Nigeria is indiscipline and impunity. When you enter into a contract, you are supposed to abide by the terms of the contract. You don’t just do what you want, and that is what is causing us trouble. And when you want to enter into a contract, there are experts.
There are no fields of Law in which Nigerians are lacking. We have experts. So if states want to enter into any agreement, they ought to use the best brains we have. And if any government has to guarantee any agreement, it has to be sure it knows the details of these things. Despite the fact that some of the state governments have had their funding increased by 30 percent to 40 percent, they are still going ahead to borrow. There must be discipline; there has to be discipline. You are borrowing for what? Some of the things they are borrowing for are not viable, completely not viable. If you read Okonjo-Iweala’s book, you will see where she was complaining. Some of these governors deliberately run their states into trouble by borrowing; she gave examples recently.
So, why are you building airports? Some people will go and build airports. What is the level of economic activities that go on in a place that requires an airport? Well, because of the corruption and greed involved, because of the percentage they will take upfront, that is why they go and do these white elephant projects. And when you now do it, you think, “Oh, Nigeria, everything you do in Nigeria, we can always bypass the rules.” No. Once you start involving international companies, and that is the problem we have… The president is about to go to China. You cannot go to China and bring in investors, and they come and invest, then tomorrow, one governor wakes up and says he cancels the contract. That is the problem. Nigeria is being taught a lesson that, in international relations, you must comply with international standards. There is no standard that is a Nigerian standard or another international standard. No. If you enter into an obligation, you must live up to the expectations. You don’t terminate someone’s contract just because you don’t like his face. It’s not done like that. So, Nigeria is being taught a lesson, and I hope they learn this lesson the hard way. You don’t just cancel a contract like that. The contract you are going to enter must be one that is viable. I was reading an interview by the governor of Anambra State the other day. He said that any contract his government wants to enter into, any project, the government must know whether the project will pay for itself. If it’s not going to pay, they will not enter into it because it’s dead. We are suffering now because of accumulated debt. And when you continue accumulating debt, what does it mean? Remember that investors’ confidence is lost. Nobody wants to deal with someone who cannot pay their debts. That is why, when [former President Olusegun] Obasanjo came, he decided to clear Nigeria’s debts. Why? So that the country would be creditworthy. If you are not known for paying your debts, you can’t be creditworthy. So in Nigeria, we need foreign direct investments. And for you to have foreign direct investments, you must have a legal system that is working. A legal system where you are bound by your contracts. That those who invest in your country can take out their profits without any fuss about it. So that is what Nigeria is being taught. You know we don’t have Nigerian standards. It’s international standards. So, if you must enter into a contract, you must be willing to abide by the terms of the contract. That’s my take on the issue.
But how do we really get out of this?
When you tell a child, “Don’t put your hand in the fire,” and he does, what do you do? You punish him now. What will happen is that, for instance, since it is Ogun State that caused this, what do you do? The federal government will pay. Then they will hold Ogun State’s money. That’s what they’re going to do since they guaranteed the money for Ogun State. When you are going into the federation account, the amount of money due to Ogun State will be deducted to pay… You can now mitigate it by degrading it so that they will be paying in installments, but they must be made to pay. And then all those state governors should be warned that they cannot get away with it because now, for example, they’ve been going all over the place, borrowing money. You must tell them that they are going to pay for this. Their citizens are going to pay for these things eventually. There is no free money anywhere. You can’t be calling for direct investments from foreigners and then refuse to allow them to reap the benefits or the fruits of their efforts. It doesn’t happen that way. It doesn’t happen that way.
But don’t you see a problem with the quasi-federal system of government being operated in Nigeria?
You see, the problem people have always had is that there is no ideal definition of federalism. Each federal system is unique. Each federal system responds to its own peculiar history. For instance, if you look at the history of Nigerian federalism, in the First Republic, we had the autonomy of states. The states were sufficiently powerful to run independently with little assistance from the centre. But what were the consequences? The consequences were that the regions became so powerful that it threatened the federation. And we had to fight. After fighting, the regions were subdued. So, in order not to have a repeat performance of what transpired, that is why we decided to break the regions. So that the states we have now will not be in a position to put up a challenge to the federal government. So, each federalism has its own history. And then, you know, before, we had three major ethnic groups that were strangulating every other person. So, you needed the minorities to have breathing space. That is why states were created for some minority groups to have a breathing space. We cannot use the example of federalism in the United States and then start applying it in Nigeria. No. It was the military that came and broke these things.
So now, we wanted a system where the centre should be strong enough so that minority states cannot put up a challenge. So, we now have to balance, and you know what happened was that in the 1979 Constitution, a lot of items that were formerly in the residual list were taken to the exclusive legislative list. So, what we want to do now is a balancing act. Take some of the powers that the federal government has and give them back to the states. I will give you an example. Why should you have a federal minister of agriculture? Why should I have to incorporate my company in Abuja when it is going to be operating in Ogun State? So, these are little issues. It was much later that Buhari gave over electricity.
There are lots of things like even security. The federal security system is not working; they don’t have adequate manpower. So, let each federal structure devise its own mechanism to confront the problems facing it. Like now, we are having a problem with insecurity. By now, if the government is serious, we would have had structures for state police. It would have been up and working by now. And if it were working now, we would have reduced significantly the banditry and herdsmen clashes so that our farmers could go back to farming because we are mainly agrarian. So each country should look at its peculiar problem. You don’t just go and say, “Well, because America is practising this, let me practise it.” No. A nation is growing, and as it grows, its problems start coming out. As these problems come out, you tackle them. Take, for instance, now we have the problem of our schoolchildren. So what do you do now with this number of out-of-school children? You make education available to the poor. That’s what they’re going to do—compulsory education so that these people will be compelled to come to school. That’s what you do. You respond to each of the problems as it comes. You cannot have a constitution that foresees all problems, no. And federalism is a dynamic concept. There are no two federal systems that are the same. The one in India is different; the one in Canada is different, and the one in America is different. So Nigerians must not have this misguided impression that there is an ideal form of federalism. No, there is no ideal federalism. The federalism you have is in response to your peculiar challenges. For instance, we have a peculiar security problem now. The army is failing and the police are failing, so we need to bring in the local governments. This is where we need to intervene because we now have rural bandits.
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